JESUS & THE ANUNNAKI: A 2014 SACRED MATRIX ROUNDTABLE RETURNS ~ Janet Kira Lessin, Sasha Alex Lessin, Ph.D., Gerald Clark, Neil Freer and Robert Evans ~ Panel on the Anunnaki, Nibiru, Human Origins and Contact

By Janet Kira Lessin and Sasha Alex Lessin, Ph.D.

On April 20, 2014, five researchers and experiencers gathered for a remarkable conversation on Sacred Matrix: Gerald Clark, Neil Freer, Robert Evans, Sasha Alex Lessin, Ph.D., and me, Janet Kira Lessin.

We came from different backgrounds and followed different trails of evidence, experience, and research, yet we converged on one enormous question that has remained central to our work for decades: Who are the Anunnaki, and what part did they play in the origin, development, and continuing story of humanity?

More than twelve years later, I recovered the original recording, and hearing these voices again brought an entire era of research, broadcasting, and collaboration back to life. Gerald Clark and Neil Freer have since passed from this world, yet their ideas, investigations, and personal experiences remain preserved in programs such as this one, which is why Sasha and I decided that this broadcast should not disappear into another forgotten digital archive.

We are restoring it, preserving it, and bringing it back before the public so that listeners who knew these researchers can hear them again and those discovering the subject today can encounter their work in their own historical context.

FIVE VOICES, ONE ENORMOUS QUESTION

The original program brought together Gerald Clark, Neil Freer, Robert Evans, Sasha and me at a time when serious public discussion of extraterrestrial contact still remained far outside conventional discourse, yet the questions we were asking in 2014 now sound far less remote in an era when military personnel, scientists, journalists, elected officials and government agencies openly discuss UAP and nonhuman intelligence.

Even then, however, we were looking far beyond the modern UFO era, because the central issue for us was not whether contact began in the twentieth century, but whether humanity has interacted with nonhuman civilizations for thousands of years and whether some of the beings later transformed into gods, angels, demons and mythological figures were, in fact, technologically advanced visitors whose interventions helped shape human civilization.

For Sasha and me, those questions again and again led to the Anunnaki, whose story brings together Nibiru, ancient Mesopotamia, human origins, genetic intervention, religious transformation, dynastic power, factional conflict, and the possibility that humanity’s earliest civilizations developed within a much broader cosmic context.

NEIL FREER: HUMANITY MUST GROW UP

Neil Freer spent decades challenging humanity to reconsider its origins and examine whether the ancient gods should continue to be understood as supernatural beings, or instead represent advanced physical entities whose actions became embedded in religion, mythology, and culture over thousands of years.

His work carried the Anunnaki discussion beyond ancient tablets and into the question of human maturity, because if the beings once worshiped as gods were not gods at all, then humanity would eventually have to face the psychological and spiritual consequences of that realization and begin to understand who those beings were, what they did here and why human societies continued to surrender authority to inherited systems based on divine rule.

Neil also brought personal experience into the conversation, discussing encounters that influenced his understanding of Enki and the Anunnaki and linking those experiences to the research he had pursued for decades. Neil was a contactee, and Enki contacted him when he was twelve years old.

That combination of ancient texts, modern contact, and personal testimony gave his work a distinctive place within the broader Anunnaki conversation and helped reinforce one of the central themes of our roundtable: the possibility that the story preserved in ancient traditions may not have ended in ancient Sumer.

JANET KIRA LESSIN: CONTACT DID NOT END IN ANCIENT SUMER

I came to the discussion from the perspective of both researcher and lifelong experiencer, and my own contact experiences convinced me long ago that humanity does not inhabit an isolated world and that the intelligence interacting with us has taken many forms across different periods of history.

For me, ancient history and modern contact have never existed in separate boxes, because the beings described in ancient stories did not necessarily vanish merely because humanity stopped recognizing them under their original names.

Cultures change, religions change, and names change, yet the intelligence behind the stories may remain, which is why I have spent much of my life examining the connections between ancient records, contemporary contact experiences, and the possibility that the entities people encounter today belong to the same much older continuum of interaction.

That question became an important part of this 2014 roundtable and continues to shape the work Sasha and I do today.

GERALD CLARK AND THE ANUNNAKI OF NIBIRU

Gerald Clark became one of the prominent modern writers who brought the Anunnaki story to a broad audience, and his work explored ancient Mesopotamia, Nibiru, human origins, genetic intervention, hidden history, and the possibility that ancient systems of hierarchy and control continued to influence human civilization long after the original events faded into mythology and religion.

Gerald examined the Anunnaki not as distant symbolic figures but as physical beings whose actions affected the development of humanity, which opened a series of larger questions about why ancient rulers claimed divine authority, why civilizations around the world repeatedly described beings descending from the heavens, and why so many creation traditions contained themes of intervention, modification, instruction, and conflict among powerful nonhuman factions.

His contribution helped bring those questions into the modern Anunnaki discussion and placed his work in direct dialogue with the perspectives of Neil Freer, Robert Evans, Sasha, and me during this 2014 Sacred Matrix program.

ROBERT EVANS: LOOKING TOWARD THE SUN

Robert Evans brought another dimension into the discussion by examining Nibiru, unusual solar imagery, astronomical anomalies, and the possibility that contemporary observations might connect with ancient accounts of the Anunnaki and their planetary system.

That perspective expanded the discussion beyond archaeology and ancient texts, because if Nibiru and its inhabitants were part of humanity’s history, researchers naturally began to ask whether signs of that larger story might also appear in modern astronomical observations.

Robert considered whether unusual objects observed near the Sun represented unexplained natural phenomena, technological objects, or evidence connected in some way with the ancient traditions surrounding Nibiru, and his contribution added an observational component to a conversation that already included anthropology, ancient history, religious interpretation, and direct experience.

SASHA ALEX LESSIN, PH.D: ANTHROPOLOGY MEETS THE ANUNNAKI

Sasha brought his training in anthropology and psychology, along with decades of research into human behavior, mythology, consciousness, and the work of Zecharia Sitchin, to a discussion that repeatedly returned to the social consequences of the Anunnaki story.

If technologically advanced extraterrestrials came to Earth, created or modified humanity, organized labor, established kingships, and fought among themselves, then the story becomes much more than an account of ancient visitors, because it begins to raise difficult questions about the origins of hierarchy, divine authority, political domination, and the human tendency to transfer power to rulers who claim sacred legitimacy.

Sasha’s work repeatedly asked why humans transformed powerful beings into gods, why domination systems reproduced themselves generation after generation, and what might happen when humanity finally recognized that the figures worshiped as gods were not supernatural beings but members of a technologically advanced civilization with their own families, rivalries, and political agendas.

Those questions became central to the books, articles, and broadcasts Sasha and I later produced together.

JESUS AND THE OLDER STORY

One reason this particular discussion became unusual was its willingness to carry the Anunnaki hypothesis into territory many researchers avoided by examining religion within a much older historical framework.

If nonhuman beings influenced humanity before the Biblical period, then the political, genetic, religious, and cultural consequences of their presence would not simply disappear, but would instead continue through bloodlines, priesthoods, dynasties, mythologies, teachings, and institutions that evolved over generations.

That possibility raises important questions about the origins of divine kingship, the extent to which later religions preserved memories of earlier contact, whether conflicts among Anunnaki factions survived inside later theological systems, and whether stories of gods, angels, demons, and heavenly messengers preserved fragments of encounters with physical nonhuman beings.

Within that larger context, the life and teachings of Jesus can be examined as part of a world already shaped by thousands of years of earlier contact traditions rather than as an isolated event detached from the deeper history that preceded it.

Exploring those possibilities does not require anyone to abandon spirituality; instead, it invites us to examine the historical foundations of religious traditions with greater depth and curiosity.

THE GODS BECOME HISTORY

The deeper importance of the Anunnaki story lies in a shift of perspective that changes the way we read ancient history, because once the gods become beings rather than abstractions, creation can be reconsidered as intervention, myth can be examined as memory, divine wars can be understood as political conflicts, and sacred bloodlines can be viewed as dynastic lineages.

In that framework, some events remembered as miracles may have involved technology, while religion itself may represent, in part, humanity’s effort to preserve memories of encounters it could no longer fully explain.

This perspective does not answer every question, nor should it, but it creates a broader set of questions that deserve investigation, and those questions were what brought Gerald Clark, Neil Freer, Robert Evans, Sasha and me together in 2014.

HUMAN ORIGINS AND THE ANUNNAKI QUESTION

At the center of our work lies the question of human origins, because conventional history describes the rise of civilization as a gradual human development, while the Anunnaki story presents another possibility in which advanced beings arrived from elsewhere, established settlements, extracted resources, created labor systems, intervened in biology, and influenced the development of human society.

Within this framework, humanity did not simply develop in isolation but emerged inside a relationship that contained cooperation, conflict, instruction, manipulation, affection, domination, and rebellion.

Different Anunnaki factions held different attitudes toward humanity, and those disagreements shaped the ancient story while also helping explain why later religious traditions preserved contradictory images of compassionate gods and wrathful gods, protectors and destroyers, teachers and rulers.

The Anunnaki were not one unified mind but individuals, families, factions, and political rivals, and that distinction remains essential to understanding the larger story.

ENKI, ENLIL AND THE FACTIONAL DIVIDE

Much of the Anunnaki narrative revolves around the rivalry between Enki and Enlil, whose conflict involved succession, authority, humanity, and competing visions of how Earth should be governed.

Enki emerged as a creator, scientist, geneticist, and advocate for humanity, while Enlil became associated with command, law, control, and authority, and their disagreements repeatedly affected the fate of the human species.

Within the Anunnaki framework, these were not merely mythological archetypes but members of a ruling family whose personal and political disputes influenced an emerging civilization, and as generations passed, those events entered the myths and religions of later societies under altered names and symbolic forms.

The political history became theology, while memories of ancient rivalries survived inside stories whose original context became harder to recognize.

THE ANUNNAKI AND HUMANITY’S FUTURE

The Anunnaki question matters not only because of what may have happened thousands of years ago, but because of what humanity chooses to do with that knowledge now.

If our species was shaped by outside intervention, we still must decide what kind of civilization we wish to create, and if domination entered human culture through ancient systems of kingship and hierarchy, humanity does not have to preserve those systems forever.

If ancient beings demanded worship, people living today do not have to surrender their sovereignty, and if humanity was once created to serve, we can choose another purpose for ourselves.

Understanding our origins can therefore become an act of liberation rather than another form of dependence, because the goal is not to replace one religion with another but to understand who we are, where we came from, and what possibilities may still lie ahead.

WHY BRING THIS RECORDING BACK NOW?

More than twelve years have passed since this Sacred Matrix roundtable, and during that time the language surrounding extraterrestrial intelligence has changed dramatically, as UFOs became UAPs and ridicule gradually gave way to congressional hearings, military testimony, and public discussion of nonhuman intelligence.

Yet much of the modern debate still begins in 1947, while our work asks humanity to look much farther back and consider whether Roswell represents one chapter in a story that began thousands of years earlier.

The deeper trail runs through Sumer, Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Bible, ancient kingship, creation traditions, flood narratives, stories of beings who descended from the heavens, and the persistent human memory that we were shaped by those who came before us.

The Anunnaki stand near the center of that mystery, which is why these older conversations remain relevant today.

PRESERVING THE VOICES

That is why I am restoring this recording now, because Neil Freer and Gerald Clark deserve to be heard in their own voices, Robert Evans deserves to have his contribution preserved, and the entire discussion deserves another chance to reach people who may never have encountered it when it first aired.

Sasha and I have spent decades researching, interviewing, writing, and gathering testimony concerning these questions, and the old broadcasts represent an enormous historical archive that risks disappearing as websites close, platforms delete material, and digital formats change.

We intend to preserve what remains, and this recording represents one important piece of that restoration.

By rebroadcasting the original program, we can allow longtime listeners to hear it again while giving a new generation the opportunity to encounter these researchers and their ideas for the first time, and from there we can continue the conversation through new articles, images, presentations, and broadcasts that examine what we understood in 2014, what we have learned since, and where the Anunnaki story leads next.

The conversation that began then continues today, and this recovered program gives us an opportunity to reopen that discussion with the benefit of twelve additional years of research, experience, and reflection.

Janet Kira Lessin & Sasha Alex Lessin, Ph.D.

DragonAtTheEndOfTime.com
EnkiSpeaks.com
AquarianMedia.org

ABOUT THE PARTICIPANTS

Janet Kira Lessin (1954-)

Janet Kira Lessin is an author, researcher, experiencer, broadcaster, and co-founder of Aquarian Radio and Aquarian Media whose work has explored extraterrestrial contact, consciousness, ancient civilizations, the Anunnaki, experiencer testimony, and humanity’s relationship with nonhuman intelligence for decades.

Her research grew alongside a lifetime of personal contact experiences, and over the years she has interviewed hundreds of researchers, witnesses, authors, and experiencers while also co-authoring books and articles with her husband, Sasha Alex Lessin, Ph.D.

Through DragonAtTheEndOfTime.com, EnkiSpeaks.com, and AquarianMedia.org, Janet continues to preserve earlier broadcasts while developing new work on contact, ancient history, consciousness, experiencer testimony, and the Anunnaki.

Sasha Alex Lessin, Ph.D. (1940-)

Sasha Alex Lessin, Ph.D. is an anthropologist, author, and researcher whose work examines human origins, mythology, consciousness, social hierarchy, and the Anunnaki traditions preserved in ancient Mesopotamian texts.

Dr. Lessin earned graduate degrees in anthropology and psychology at UCLA and a Ph.D. in anthropology, and spent decades studying the ways belief systems, social structures, mythology, and ancient accounts shape human civilization, while his later research focused heavily on the work of Zecharia Sitchin and on the political, social, and genetic implications of the Anunnaki story.

Together with Janet Kira Lessin, he has written over a dozen books, hosted or was featured on hundreds of interviews, and produced extensive research on the Anunnaki, Nibiru, human origins, and humanity’s ancient relationship with nonhuman intelligences, much of which is preserved at EnkiSpeaks.com.

Neil Freer (c. 1930–March 25, 2016)

Neil Freer was an author, researcher, and lecturer best known for his work on the Anunnaki, human origins, and the implications of Zecharia Sitchin’s interpretations of ancient Mesopotamian texts.

Freer argued that humanity was entering a new stage of intellectual and spiritual maturity in which ancient gods could be reconsidered as advanced physical beings rather than supernatural deities, and he encouraged people to examine human origins through ancient records, archaeology, comparative mythology, and the possibility of extraterrestrial intervention.

He also spoke publicly about personal contact experiences that influenced his understanding of the Anunnaki and Enki, while his broader message emphasized the need for humanity to move beyond dependence upon gods and external authorities and begin to understand its own origins, history, and potential.

Gerald Clark (1963-June 4, 2020)

Gerald Clark was an author, researcher, and lecturer whose work focused on the Anunnaki, ancient Mesopotamia, human origins, hidden history, and the possible survival of ancient systems of control into the modern world.

He became widely known through books and public presentations on the Anunnaki of Nibiru, drawing connections among Sumerian traditions, ancient astronomy, mythology, genetic intervention, and the development of human civilization, while also working to make complex ancient history material accessible to a broad audience.

Clark’s participation in the 2014 Sacred Matrix roundtable placed his research in direct conversation with Neil Freer, Robert Evans, Janet Kira Lessin, and Sasha Alex Lessin and preserved an important snapshot of the wider Anunnaki research community during that period.

Robert Evans

Robert Evans is a researcher whose work during this period explored Nibiru, unusual solar imagery, astronomical anomalies, and the possibility that contemporary observations might connect with ancient accounts of the Anunnaki and their planetary system.

During the 2014 Sacred Matrix discussion, Evans contributed the astronomical and observational side of the conversation, complementing the historical, anthropological, and experiencer perspectives brought by the other participants while examining unusual objects and activity recorded near the Sun and considering whether such observations might provide clues to a larger celestial story connected with Nibiru.

His contribution helped bridge ancient Anunnaki traditions with modern questions about what may be occurring in the skies and whether contemporary observation can shed light on stories preserved in ancient records.

Who Are The Anunnaki? A Roundtable

The Sacred Matrix | Revolution Radio, freedomslips.com Hosts: Janet Kira Lessin and Sasha Alex Lessin, Ph.D. Guests: Neil Freer, Gerald Clark, Robert Evans Jr. Recorded Easter Sunday

Cleaned transcript. Timestamps removed, filler and crosstalk trimmed, proper names restored to standard spellings.

---

HOUR ONE: INTRODUCTIONS

JANET: Who are the Anunnaki? Who are these parents and grandparents of ours? And what was their role in our religion? We have a roundtable discussion with some incredible authors and researchers: Neil Freer, Gerald Clark, Robert Evans Jr., and Dr. Sasha Lessin. Sasha and I have written two books on the Anunnaki, Anunnaki: Gods No More and Anunnaki: Legacy of the Gods. Sasha wants to say something before I bring everyone on. Go ahead.

SASHA: This is the most incredible show. I really want you to listen up, because Neil Freer, who is a philosopher, has also experienced the Anunnaki who are helping us, particularly Enki. He is a lifelong experiencer as well as a scholar, so listen up. The other thing that is going to make you feel a lot better is that Bob Evans is going to tell us how the ETs in huge ships near the sun are actually deflecting the solar flares that would otherwise be coming in on us right now. And Gerald Clark, I have studied what he has written really intensely, and it is so good that I am going to change my opinion about who Allah was. I think Gerald is right. It probably was Nannar rather than Marduk. Anyway, it is going to be a great show.

JANET: This first round we are going to toss the ball around and give everybody a chance to discuss the issues. We start with Neil Freer, then Gerald, then Robert. Each person introduces themselves and takes three to five minutes on who you are and how you got into this Anunnaki research field. Neil, let’s start with you.

NEIL: Let’s see. I actually honed up the life stories by doing them just previously, and I will try to shorten them a little this time.

JANET: Take your time. We have two hours.

NEIL: I had two major contacts, at the age of six and at twelve. The first one at six years old, in hindsight, although I did not understand what was happening at that particular point because of my age and lack of experience and knowledge, was Anunnaki, and they were picking me up to tweak me. The second one at twelve years old, I was picked up in the middle of the night by Anunnaki androids who wanted me to be very comfortable and happy with the situation and enlisted by the Anunnaki.

Let me tell you a little about the first one. The background is that I was born and brought up Catholic. In this particular case, when I was six years old, my mother and father and sister and I were visiting relatives in a very rural area in New York State, Gardiner, New York. At that point, in 1936, the men all adjourned to the beautiful summer evening in June on the front porch and the rocking chairs, one of those long front porches, after supper, and left the dishes of course to the women. I was standing alongside my father at the end of the row of men, learning to do man talk.

Probably ten minutes after everyone had sat down, someone said, well, that looks like the mail plane going by. A light went left to right in the sky. But somebody said, well, there is no sound to it, what’s happening? And they dismissed it. When the light went way off to my right, still visible, I looked down the row and all the men had frozen in space-time in mid-syllable. Not a sound, not a movement.

The aliens told me to go around the end of the porch into the dark, which I did, although it was extremely scary. There was something very large out there. In hindsight it was obviously a ship, and I must have been taken on board and worked with. I have no memory of that particular part of the incident until I came back onto the porch. They directed me back, and just as I stepped onto the porch, everything started up mid-syllable again. I mentioned it to my father and he did not know whether to hiccup or turn blue, quite frankly, having had no experience with that at all. Then somebody pulled out a pocket watch and said, gee, it is almost 10:30, quarter of eleven, and it seems like we just got out here. Apparently it was a typical missing time situation, for hours literally.

JANET: You said you got tweaked. What do you mean by tweaked?

NEIL: Whatever they did genetically or mentally or psychologically, I do not know the detail really. But I think they were preparing me in whatever way was appropriate for the next major contact, when I was twelve.

Then I had no contact like that at all until the age of twelve plus. At that point we were on the second story of a house in Poughkeepsie, New York. I had gone to bed, and in the middle of the night, I had no idea what time it was, I found myself woken up in a blue cloud field, held high by four short little gray fellas, aliens, holding me weightless above their heads, horizontal. They wanted me to have as much fun as they were having. They almost acted like apprentices, playing around.

I quickly realized that at my head, and I had to turn backwards almost to see him, was another gray, but taller and huskier and obviously the sergeant of the detail. He was guiding me. He wanted me to ask the first time, you know, who are you, what are you? And when I said, what are you, he said, we’re androids. Well, I had no concept of the word android at that point. This was 1942, even before Roswell. But he gave me to understand immediately that it was a combination of humanoid and robot, because he obviously knew that I knew that word from reading Flash Gordon comics.

It was a very short conversation. I was still being held up. The sergeant wanted me to ask, well, what’s this really all about, what do you want from me? And when I asked that question, he said, we are asking you to help us get into the planet, into Earth. In hindsight, knowing what I know now about the history of it, they were getting reintroduced into the planet with my help. They were so respectful, even for a twelve-and-a-half-year-old. It was such a pleasant and novel situation that I said sure. It seemed like a very logical thing to do. As soon as I said that and gave my consent, the sergeant pushed a huge ball of information up through some sort of subcortical conduit into my brain. I was an information junkie by that time, and I thought, wow, that’s information, but I don’t understand any of it. He immediately said, no, you won’t understand it, it’s not meant for now. Probably a little will be given to you as you go, but it’s for when you are much, much older. He gave me to understand maybe like seventy years old.

SASHA: Neil, which part of your head did it get pushed into? The back, the front, the side?

NEIL: Yes. All the above. All over. The imaginary concept I had of it was that it was literally larger than the whole volume of my skull. But he managed to put it in there, and whatever brain center or centers seemed to accommodate it.

The next question in this very short contact was, well, if you’re androids, obviously you’re robots, androids, who’s your management? And a white curtain was symbolically pulled aside, and there was a very tall, very husky humanoid there, male, in a white robe, big Semitic bushy beard. He was not a god figure. He was a very humanoid, obviously alien. He gave me to understand that because I had agreed to help them, they would take care of me for the rest of my life and watch out for me, which was pretty nice of them. That was pretty much the extent of it.

Somewhere along the line, when I told my mother about it afterwards, she said, well, do they have a name? And I said, well, it was Anunnaki or something like that. It really was not that important to me during the situation. But in hindsight it was obviously Anunnaki.

I told both my parents about this, and they were really blown away. They had little context in which to understand it. What was interesting, and really helpful, is that maybe three or four months after this, in very cold winter weather in Poughkeepsie, I went to bed and this time I had not gotten onto the pillow. My mother and father were having a cup of coffee in the kitchen of this second story apartment, and the street light outside and other lights around it seemed to be getting very, very bright. I peeked out the window and it indeed was getting very light out there. I ran into the kitchen to my parents. My father saw what was happening and took the old top-hung wooden frame storm window off the front of the house in the living room, put it against the wall inside, and he and I ended up sitting on the windowsill outside, holding onto the slide-up window, looking up above the house into the source of this bright light. You could see portholes.

He was looking at me like, what have I got my hands on here? And I said to him, logically, that must be the little guys. What really happened is that they came back to reassure the parents that the kid was not going loopy, which I have always appreciated. That did help a lot with them. But they did talk to the priest about it, and I think my father, who was a policeman at that time, even consulted privately with the police force psychologist.

JANET: Wow. So that gives a little background. How did you get into the Anunnaki research? What was your connection?

SASHA: Wait, wait. What were the vibes like from Enki? And what made you think it was Enki?

NEIL: I’m guessing. The humanoid that I encountered did not give a name, and I did not ask a name. But because of his physical characteristics and his knowledge base or whatever, it seems, and this is really guessing, because they have never told me.

JANET: Sometimes what I notice in my contact is that they do not use language. They convey ideas, and the ideas do not make sense at the time, but then later, when more pieces of the information come in, you go, aha, that’s what they meant. It’s like your initial information download. You are not far enough along your path to understand what they are saying at that time, but later on it just falls into place. That’s what I have noticed with my contact.

NEIL: I would totally agree. This obviously was telepathic all the way through this communication. It seemed like regular speech, but it was obviously all telepathic.

JANET: I want to tie in before we go to Gerald. How did you discover Sitchin’s research and begin researching the Anunnaki?

NEIL: Because of the influence of the Anunnaki, I always had in the back of my mind a direct interest in anything of that sort, and that’s why I devoured von Däniken and anything else that came along. But it was not until 1976, when we were running our own business in Woodstock, New York. We had a subscription to the Kingston Freeman newspaper, which I never thought too much of and seldom if ever read. But I walked into the living room in the middle of the day when a copy had just come and was on the coffee table, and this voice, call it a voice, whatever, said to me, pick up that newspaper and read it.

When I did pick it up off the coffee table, the first thing that struck my eye was a pre-publication synopsis and review of Sitchin’s first book, The 12th Planet. I no more than read that and I said to myself, oh, here we go. And that’s exactly what happened. I became intensely involved in his material, learning it. Eventually I met Zecharia. I spoke at one of his conferences, where he ran it himself, and I spoke with him at other times. He wrote the introduction for my first two books, Breaking the God Spell and God Games: What Do You Do Forever?

I had the greatest respect for him, because he was not just a researcher, he was a Semitic scholar and he was able to read Sumerian. He could pick up a clay tablet with the cuneiform on it and read it just as well as you and I can read the newspaper. His information was as direct as you could get, through his own translations and other people’s translations. He was a member of a number of the technical societies. I think one was an archaeology society, and one or two others, and he was respected. In fact, people have told me that the professionals in those societies, although overtly and publicly they were always hesitant to acknowledge him as the expert that he was, had a great respect for him, and there was a great deal of interest in his writings and material.

JANET: Thank you, Neil. Gerald, would you like to take a turn and tell us who you are and how you got involved in this Anunnaki research?

SASHA: First I want to make sure that you tell us how the mindsets are perpetuated physiologically. You have the best explanation of how this works.

JANET: We’ll get back to that. We’re going to let everybody do an introduction. Okay, Gerald, over to you.

GERALD: Hello, Janet. How do you hear me?

JANET: We can hear you fine. Tell us about yourself and how you got involved in the Anunnaki research.

GERALD: My name is Gerald Clark. I was originally born in San Diego, California. I spent ten years on a farm in the northwest corner of Arkansas, where I too had my first UFO encounter at about age fourteen. I have described that on a couple of shows. I think there probably was some influence at that juncture. Whether they simply opened my mind to the possibility of life forms from another planet, or whether I was directly interactive as close as they were, it’s hard to say.

That being said, I was in the northwest corner of Arkansas when I was first exposed to religion, and in that part of the country, in the Bible belt, I was exposed to Southern Baptists. In that part of the country it’s interesting. They actually are somewhat scholarly, disciples of the Bible. We all knew the salvation doctrine inside and out, especially since Martin Luther pinned it on the doors of the Catholic Church in Europe. I had been through an experience where I felt like I had experienced the energy of this being they call, and I’m going to use a different term, I’m going to say Yehoshua, or Ningishzidda. I felt the energy of that. So I came at it with a lot of religious dogma, but at the same time, through my path, I experienced an energetic relationship that I was trying to explain as an electrical engineer.

I left Arkansas, went back to San Diego, established residency, got into UCSD as an electrical engineer. Then my other passion came up, which was flying. I had always wanted to fly. I had actually turned down a position at the Air Force Academy when I was eighteen. I deferred and did not do it. But my dream for flying still existed, and I think it was more like a bird than a destructive war machine, though I did not know the difference at the time.

I got back to San Diego, established residency, got into college, electrical engineering, just like I wanted. All of a sudden I was presented this opportunity by my boss, who was a pilot at a grocery store in San Diego. He had a P-51 Mustang and really influenced me. He said, well, maybe you should go take this test. While I was in college, I got courted off by the Army to fly helicopters, which I did for seven years. I left the military in ’89, came back to San Diego, and finished up my electrical engineering program at exactly the same place, UCSD. Through that process, I would summarize it by saying I knew the laws of physics really well, and as an electrical engineer I understood the relationship between energy and matter better than the average person.

Through my path, I ended up with a genetically disabled child. By the time he was five, he was still wearing braces on his legs because he had low muscle tone. He just could not support his weight, so he was having a hard time with gravity. Through some triathlons I was running in San Diego, I met a guy who turned me on to what I will call structural integration. I did not think much of it, but the concept of something being able to help my kid that was also helping me made sense to me. I tried it. It worked for me. It was absolutely profound what happened with me, and I’ve discussed that in my book and on some other shows.

From that standpoint, I ended up going to Hawaii to learn how to do this profound structure work that I thought was going to help my kid, just the way Ida Rolf discovered it helped her kid who had polio. I came back from Hawaii armed with this knowledge of how to change the connective tissue of the body such that the body could have a different relationship with gravity. Part of the big problem with my son JJ is that his lower leg was very much occluded by the fascia that belonged on his tibia but had drifted down his leg. It looked like a sock right around his ankle. It was really bad. I took pictures of it. I was so disturbed by what this genetic disorder had done to him. It’s called DiGeorge syndrome, for those who are listening.

While I was in Hawaii, interestingly enough, by that point I had left the telecommunications market, where I had been a VP of engineering for many years, and I was going to learn this crazy bodywork thing to help my kid while the telecom market had melted down. In that process I was doing some research. I wanted to learn more about ancient history, having traveled in Turkey, met some people there, and realized that places like Göbekli Tepe existed and were much older than anything we knew historically about even Egypt and Mesopotamia. I was trying to connect the dots, thinking I was going to write a book, but not really serious. Then I stumbled upon Zecharia Sitchin’s work through that process, and many others as well. I read starting with von Däniken and read forward. Unfortunately I did not stumble across Neil’s tremendous books until later, and I’ve had a close relationship with Neil since I wrote my book.

From an energetic standpoint, landing in Hawaii, suddenly having experiences with structure work, and being in a mystical place in the matrix like Hawaii.

JANET: Anyway, I’m jealous, Janet and Sasha, is what you’re thinking.

GERALD: Yes, be jealous. I know you’re on Maui, but I was on Kauai. Through that process, part of our requirement was to write a paper to graduate from this course so that we could go and be structural integrators and get licensed and all that. I was really just focused on my kid. But in that process, being an electrical engineer, I was experiencing this energetic change in my body, sensitivity to light, water, everything. It was different. And of course I could see this correlated with the changes in my posture as I went through this structural realignment process. Some people call it Rolfing, but she did not prefer that term.

In that paper, which was called “Structure Is Function and Energy,” and I published it in a few different journals, I made the connection that this order of reality we’re living in also seemed to be manipulated by extraterrestrials. I was not really big into panspermia, even though Jonas Salk was from San Diego and had written about that, but because of Sitchin’s work I was a little more open to that idea. While I was in Hawaii I had an encounter with one of the teachers who was mystical, and I won’t say his name, but he mentioned a colloidal solution of gold, which also augmented this energetic experience I was describing in my paper, which I put in a mathematical formula and ended up putting in my book. Essentially what I would call that equation is the maximal energy that a human can experience as a function of gravity, wavelength, frequency, and weight, all things we can measure. That turned out to be what I wrote in this paper, and it’s been refined since then.

From that energetic standpoint, I got introduced to the Anunnaki. Because of this colloidal solution of gold reference that I learned about in Hawaii, I had read Laurence Gardner’s book Genesis of the Grail Kings, and I was very familiar and astounded at the level of knowledge that he had. So I’m glad to hear that Laurence Gardner was so venerated by Neil, because he was an amazing man.

From there I started looking into this more closely and connecting the dots with Sitchin’s work. About that time I started writing my own book, probably in 2003 or 2004. I worked on this and I put it off to the side, because I was an engineer. My primary focus was making money and paying for my family, and I’ve got two kids in college, so it was kind of a hobby for me. It was not the main focus of my life.

From my exposure to Laurence Gardner, I started putting together a genealogy table connecting that with the prehistory from Nibiru that Zecharia Sitchin had written about, and then coupling in the Sumerian King List. So I had a full picture of our genealogy all the way back to the Babylonian Epic of Creation, and then the prehistory of Nibiru as well, so that I understood how Anu came to be, and then all these players that show up in the Sumerian account. I got an opportunity to do a deep dive for two or three years, but the book never got published. It sat there in a box since 2004 or ’05 and never saw the light of day. Nobody was talking about the Sumerian material in a big way, especially in the engineering communities where I worked and at the university. I worked at the University of California a couple of times, spent a whole lot of time at UCSD, where I was working on my Ph.D. in evolvable hardware. These evolutionary algorithms I was interested in also coupled with my knowledge about what was going on with our DNA.

One thing led to another, and after reading Laurence Gardner’s book I started to connect who the Anunnaki hierarchy were on their council, listed a table of them in their ranks, and then followed them through cultures, much like Rob Solarion did in his book Isis, Osiris and Planet X. Once you saw that they could live a long time, live cross-culturally, that became so real to me that I just had to capture it. That, and the fact that my wife figured out how to self-publish and got an editor out of my way, meant I finally published my book last August. It has really changed my life.

I want to connect the dots real quickly with Neil, because right after that I get this phone call from someone, and I’m going to characterize this, and it isn’t accurate, okay, but it’s like, hey, Clark, over here, I got something to talk to you about. And I didn’t know who Neil was, because I had not stumbled on his books yet. When I finally got on the phone with Neil and connected with him, he dropped a few dimes on me and told me, hey, there’s a chapter in Sapiens Rising that I’d like you to read. And I did. I venerated him, I went and looked at it, and it really opened some doors for me. So I really am appreciative to Neil.

I’ll share something else. He shared his screenplay The Babel Factor with me last year, and I have not told him what I did with that since then. I took that screenplay, Neil, and I spent some time on it and worked on it and revised some things to add a slightly different flavor, which I’m going to share with you. Since that time I’ve made it available to a couple of producers, one in Hollywood and another one up in Ontario. It’s a process, a process of getting into the movie scene, and there will be potential rewrites and all this, because if you’re going to publish your archetypal story in Hollywood it’s going to meet their certain template.

I’ve learned a lot from reading David Wilcock’s book about the synchronicity key and all that he went through as a screenwriter, actually telling a story, and the idea of Joseph Campbell and The Hero with a Thousand Faces really rings true with me now, to see how we were designed by Enki with this archetypal nature built into us to run the hero’s journey through this life. That’s where my story comes off a little differently from the other researchers. I connect that story to our spirituality and your physical body. I wanted to make sure that we were operating in a place where we could use some of the characters’ names and start telling the story. Do you feel, Janet, that we’ve illuminated the marriage of characters so we can launch right into that, or where are you at with that?

JANET: I wanted to briefly have Robert Evans Jr., and Dr. Lessin needs to briefly tell the audience who he is in terms of his Anunnaki research. Let me have Robert come on. Sasha, which one goes next?

SASHA: Let Robert go next.

JANET: Robert, you go next. Thanks for being patient.

ROBERT: Oh, no problem at all. I’m really the new kid on the block amongst these two masters, and also with you and Sasha. Robert Evans Jr. I was born and raised here in San Francisco, California. I went through regular normal public school, married my high school sweetheart, and we’re working on thirty-nine years of our marriage now.

I worked at several different places over the years. I went to police officer reserve classes at San Mateo College back in ’89, ’90, ran for US Congress back in 1994 and then ’96 against Tom Lantos here in the 12th Congressional District.

I started researching the Anunnaki when I started seeing these different videos on YouTube back in 2007, 2008, where they were showing things that were showing up in the Microsoft WorldWide Telescope. There were like four different telescope-type things on the internet, and they were all showing these weird objects that looked like someone had taken a black marker or two and wiped them out completely. I took the star coordinates and sent them to a friend of mine that worked over at NASA. I think he’s still there, not sure. He sent me back a really interesting image, because on the sky image it showed this kind of bright area in the star pattern. When I got it back from NASA it was a DSS image, meaning what you would see through a telescope yourself. And here were five planets orbiting around something. And there wasn’t anything in the middle.

It spurred me on even further. Everyone’s saying, oh, this is Nibiru, it’s coming back. All right. I went into my own research. I did not rely upon any of the books from Mr. Sitchin. I went back 3,600 years to try to see what exactly would have been the big thing here on Earth back then. And God, was I not prepared for the stuff I found. One thing after the other after the other, all just on the internet. Accounts from a fellow named Mozi over in China from about 1600, matching accounts from ancient Egypt from around the same time.

As I’m doing this research, I’m really digging into different things. My friends started to send me photographs they had taken directly off the SOHO web page, which is free to the public. You can go in there, and if you know what cameras you’re looking at and what time periods, you can see these really nice images. And these images were showing me stuff like flying saucers being picked up back in 1998 by the LASCO SOHO camera. Like, what? And then I’m seeing all these other weird things heading toward the sun, coming away from the sun.

I had a friend on another web page, and I promised him I would never mention his name. He said, okay, send me some of these images. So I did. He claimed he was a photographic analyst, and he told me he worked somewhere down around Moffett Field here in California, about thirty miles south of me. He said, do you realize what you have here? I said no. He said, these things are real. And these were actual satellite camera images showing these massive things coming into our system. It’s only one small field of view, just the sun, everything that SOHO looks for every day. But these things were coming in.

Bits and pieces started to come together, and I started talking about them on Facebook. Then I ran into a couple of other nice people that I think you also know, Lorien Fenton. She’s in charge of one of the MUFON groups up here in Petaluma, California. She also has her own radio show. And I somehow wound up with John Elias down in Southern California, being on his show. From him I went to Ivy West over in Hawaii, out there where you are, Sasha and Janet. And next thing I know, I’m being asked to be a speaker at UFOCon 2013, and they said this stuff has to be gotten out to the people.

I’ve been listening to Sasha now for quite some time. I’ve watched his Enki Speaks emails that I’ve been getting, and more and more, as I started putting things together with The 12th Planet from Zecharia Sitchin, I started to realize these things are real and we’re seeing them on a daily basis coming into our system. Everything from The 12th Planet started to match up with everything I was seeing over in the Middle East with the ancient Zoroastrian religion showing the Ahura Mazda. This huge thing carved onto the walls over there. That carving is almost an exact duplicate for the ships that are coming in.

JANET: The carvings look like the ships coming in? It broke up a little.

ROBERT: Yes. The carvings look like the ships coming in. The Ahura Mazda, which shows a big pair of outstretched bird’s wings with an Anunnaki god standing right in the middle. But everyone ignores the fact that it doesn’t have bird’s feet. It has landing gear, two nice metal poles with round wheels. So all this stuff started to come together, and then I was finally noticed by Sasha and asked to be on your show a couple of times, and here I am again. The people need to know about these things.

JANET: All right. We’re going to come back and go into Dr. Lessin. Just tell our listeners a little about how you got into the Anunnaki research.

SASHA: I’m a cultural anthropologist, an old one, and that makes me what’s called an ethnologist. I try to make general statements, taking all the information I can find from every source and trying to make some bigger sense out of it. I’m from UCLA. I have a Ph.D. I got sort of disgusted with anthropology for failing to account for a bunch of stuff and forcing everything into what we call an evolutionary scheme, based on the false assumption that there was a macroevolution, small and gradual, and that we came out of earlier ancestors and evolved totally on the Earth. After 140 years, no missing links were found. It was perfectly obvious that all the species that were here, basically the ones that did not go extinct, were just introduced rather than evolving out of each other.

Let me give a little five-cent history on just who the Anunnaki were. The planet Nibiru used to come through about every 3,600 years in a large elliptical clockwise orbit, passing between Mars and Jupiter, where the proto-Earth Tiamat used to be, before Nibiru and some of its moons hit it and gouged out the Pacific basin and set our planet going. That’s about 4.5 billion years ago.

About 450,000 years ago, a person who had overthrown the king of Nibiru pushed him off of a tower, because he wasn’t doing anything to save the atmosphere of Nibiru, which was leaking out into space. They decided they needed to either nuke the volcanoes, which they tried, to make ash to hold in the atmosphere, or they thought they could get monatomic gold and float it up and it would form a shield. The king Lahma did nothing, and this one collateral line, a guy named Alalu, pushed him off the tower and said, I am king now. Well, the guy who should have been king in his opinion, Anu, said, look, okay, I won’t have a civil war with you, let’s make a deal. Your daughter Damkina will marry my son Enki, and their child will succeed me. And the child was Marduk.

In the meantime, Anu, the real king in his opinion, overthrew Alalu, and Alalu escaped and took one of the rocket ships that had been armed with nukes. They had a big nuclear war before the founder of the dynasty, An, became king of the whole place. Alalu stole this ship with the nukes in it and landed on Earth. He knew from ancient charts that there was gold here, and he wired back to Nibiru, look, I’ve got missiles aimed at you and I’ve got gold that can save you, you’d better toe the line. So the Anunnaki eventually started this whole settlement where they were mining gold on Earth.

Anu had another fight with Alalu. Alalu bit off his penis, so Anu sentenced him to die on Mars. They established a transshipment base on Mars. When Anu came down, he divided up the Earth between Enki, who was the great scientist, and Enlil, his other son by his official wife, who was supposed to be commander of the operation. After a while he sent his daughter Ninmah, whom both Enki and Enlil were in love with, to be the nurse and doctor for the operation. She stopped at Mars. Alalu had died. She built, with the pilot Anzu who was there taking care of him, this huge monument on Mars at Cydonia, and she proceeded on to Earth.

The Anunnaki that were mining the gold found that the gold came to the Persian Gulf, where they had first landed, from Africa. It just floated up from Africa, from the south and east of Africa. They found huge gold deposits there, and so they got a whole bunch. Well, Janet’s telling me to stop. I’ll stop.

JANET: I just wanted to introduce how you got interested in the Anunnaki studies, and then we’re going to go into some discussion about the next level. So you started studying with Sitchin, right?

SASHA: Yes. I went to everything I could by Sitchin. I was in his first certification class, and I was able to correlate the various things he said with the ooparts from anthropology that did not fit, because he made it fit. By Occam’s razor, the most parsimonious or simplest explanation is best. I started looking at his predictions, both about the past and about what we would find in outer space, and found them to be basically accurate.

JANET: Thank you. And just to fast forward, I’m an experiencer. I have had contact with all the species, many of them, not just the grays, but the Anunnaki and the reptoids and the praying mantis. All my life I’ve had contact, back to the crib. Much like you, Neil, I have a mission. I have a mission from God. And God is Enki. At one point, after keeping it a mystery for a long time, I kept asking, who are you, who are you? He finally one day turned to me and said, you’ve known all along, you know who this is. I’m Enki. So I did get that, and that was a huge aha.

I don’t want to spend a lot of time on me, because this is such an important subject and we’ve got a lot to cover. Let’s open this up to the next level. Who are the Anunnaki? Are they here? Are they running this planet? Which ones stayed? Which ones left? Gerald or Neil, which one of you wants to start? What’s going on? Let’s bring it to the modern and we’ll go backwards again.

NEIL: I don’t have too much to say about it myself, because I’m aware of what so many people say, that some of the Anunnaki never left the planet, some of them went back home, and some of them were very concerned about the fact that being on Earth for a long period changed their lifespans, and they weren’t too happy about that. On the other hand, other people say, well, no, they all left.

If I had to bet, if somebody had a gun to my head to make me say for sure what I think, I think that some of them did stay, and some of them have been in the background for a long time. I think they have been fairly patient, watching us evolve. At this particular point in time, if A.R. Bordon, for instance, and his groups, who claim to have met with the Anunnaki and other alien races on a yearly basis, if he was correct, and he’s deceased now, then it’s time for an incoming group from the home planet to come here. Hopefully what will happen is that we will see a resolution between the human species and the Anunnaki. Hopefully they’ll be able to extend the lifespan, which they created on a very short basis when they created us as a slave species, and give us a lot of technical information, which should speed up our evolution.

To say it in one sentence, I’m not sure about what their role is at this particular point, how much influence they have, how many of them are here, and how many of them are coming back.

JANET: Okay, Gerald, what do you think?

GERALD: Can you hear me? Thanks, Neil. I do agree with Neil, and I’ll supplant what he said by stating that they were experiencing aging. It was a significant issue for Ninmah, who was Isis in Egypt, Ninharsag in the Sumerian account. She was the medical officer, and she took a message from Galzu, who was sent as an emissary traveling from Nibiru. While he was here he met with her in some of the accounts and discussed the fact that she looked a lot older than he did. She took significant note of that. And Janet, you being a woman, imagine.

JANET: Oh, we don’t like to hear that.

GERALD: Yeah, somebody going, well, you look older than, you know. That’s not what you want to hear. She took it seriously, and they did something about it, and that’s where the white powder gold comes in, and the fact that they had figured out how to affect their telomeres so that they weren’t aging on this planet like the other local life species were.

Given that knowledge, the other part of the message was that they had been somewhat enslaved by being here too long. Not all of them, but the early pioneering crew that came approximately 445,000 years ago, like Enki and Enlil and Ninmah. Those who had been here so long were told, and this was tragic news to Enlil, that if they came back to Nibiru they would surely die because of what had happened to their bodies. They were counseled that they could not leave. Enlil said, wow, we came here to do a mission, and we’re the ones that ended up being enslaved on this planet.

Knowing that, and knowing that they were at a certain distance from the sun and had been so for a very long time, they could probably stay within that close proximity without the effect of the difference in gravity. This is what I think the key was. They adapted to our gravity field. If they stayed within close proximity of the close planets like Earth and Mars, they were okay. If they went any farther, they would experience it. Now there may have been a way for them to slowly reintroduce themselves to an outer planet’s orbit, almost like decompression, and the difference in the effect on our genetics.

Some of them did stay, and their symbols and their epithets and the spirit of how they operate have been on this Earth since about 500 BC. We know they were here way back before then, but from about 500 BCE is when most of them supposedly left, and we were left as a slave species of God with no frequency overriding our mind so we could be good slaves. All of a sudden we were kind of on our own in a sense. But I do believe Enki stayed. I believe Ninmah stayed. Marduk was dead by that time.

JANET: Now, whether he is reincarnated, that’s another matter.

GERALD: They can revive them, not just reincarnate them. So there are two potential paths.

JANET: Exactly.

GERALD: But the key players that I like to focus on are Enki and Enlil. Of course Anu went back to Nibiru when they cast lots in the Atrahasis, and Enki stayed, Enlil stayed, and Ninurta was around, and so was Nannar, who was called Ilah in the Atrahasis.

JANET: I’m so relieved over the clarification that Sasha and I have been able to come to over Nannar’s role in being called Allah. Once you realize he was the moon god, it’s like, okay, it all makes sense now. Why he’s fighting with his father, Jehovah, that’s another matter, and we’ll get to that.

GERALD: Yeah, we need to get to that. I know this is Easter weekend, so I pulled out some data to lead us down this path, to pinpoint who we believe Jesus is.

JANET: We’re going to have to do that after the break. We’re on a break. So we’re going to do Jesus after we return.

SASHA: He brought this up Friday, about the real one and the one that’s been subsumed by Constantine in Rome. That is a very key piece of information. When this all fits together, I think you walk away going, wow. And here it is happening on Easter.

JANET: Yes, and it’s 4/20 Easter. Imagine that.

SASHA: Well, that’s one of the things Ninmah brought back. She brought back refreshments from Nibiru, sacred sacraments. All right, everybody, we’re going on a five-minute break.

JANET: Hold your horses. We’re going to come back and we’re going to talk about Jesus on Easter Sunday. Thank you very much. Aloha.

---

HOUR TWO: THE GRAIL LINE, THE TWO JESUSES, AND DISCLOSURE

JANET: Aloha, everybody, and welcome back to The Sacred Matrix on Revolution Radio at freedomslips.com. I’m your host, Janet Kira Lessin, with my co-host, Dr. Sasha Lessin. I want to remind everybody that Revolution Radio is listener supported. Please go over to that donation button right now, take a few minutes and donate five, ten, fifteen, twenty, a hundred, whatever you can spare. Your donation is greatly appreciated.

I also wanted to mention that my dear friend Lorien Fenton is producing a conference in Vegas the last weekend of May, called mindcontrolsummit.com. Go to mindcontrolsummit.com and you’ll see all the great speakers she has lined up.

This next hour we are going to talk with our special guests, Neil Freer, Gerald Clark, and Robert Evans Jr., about religion. Who is Jesus? What is this Easter Sunday all about, and Good Friday? What is the role of religion on this planet? How many billions believe in Jesus, and how did we get into this paradigm? And how come the bunny lays eggs?

SASHA: Yeah, that bunny. What’s with the bunny?

JANET: Okay, so we’re going to go a little out of order, but Neil, we did a test run show on Friday on another network, and you were starting to talk about the two Jesuses, according to Gardner’s information. Could you fill us in a little, and then we’ll go free flow with the conversation for the next hour.

NEIL: Yes. I was recommending the work of Laurence Gardner. I think he was a tremendous scholar, and a very honest scholar. I think he made it very clear historically what we really have, working against the context of the Grail bloodline.

He said at the beginning of his book, as most of you who have read it now realize, that he was actually hired by thirty royal families in Europe to do genealogical research and work for them. He started to do that work, and he would come across references to this ancient bloodline of kings, and he would say to them, well, what is this? What is this line of kings that runs through most of your genealogies? And they would say, well, did you find our great-great-grandfather or something? And he said, no, no, no, please level with me, what is this important line of kings? And they said, well, okay, we can come out of the woodwork now after all these years. And that is the Holy Grail. It blew him away.

To make a very long story short, the Holy Grail is not a cup and saucer or any inanimate object. It is a line of kings that was invented by Enki. When he knew that the Anunnaki were about to depart, and when I say about, it means maybe in a thousand years at that particular point in time, back in Sumer, he knew that the Anunnaki were going to phase off, and he wanted rulers to take their place, to really take care of the people, of humans. What he did was select a human female, which is the Eve in the second story of Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis, and father the child by her. The child’s name was Cain.

The oldest Hebrew texts of the Old Testament do not say, as most modern translations say now, that Cain was a bad guy who slew his brother. They say that Cain was superior to his brother Abel. And the reason why, as Gardner eventually did the detective work to determine, was that Enki’s purpose was to create a line of male kings, first to be foremen and learn the trade, and then to be kings and take over, and be servants of the people in that kind of mode, rather than domineering rulers or dictators or anything of the sort. Servants of the people, to take care of the people.

Cain was the first. And from Cain comes kinship, Cain-ship, kingship. That line of kings that Enki intended to take over from the Anunnaki came through Mesopotamia, through Egypt, and was very important in the Essene community, which was structured around it, in the desert. It was a Hebrew community at first, and it was peculiar because it was so focused on producing new members of the kingship line, the Grail bloodline, that they had rules where the males and females, husband and wife, had to live separately for most of the year and only come together in one month of the year, so that the kings in the bloodline would always be born in the same month.

Jesus and Mary, the real Jesus apparently, and his wife Mary Magdalene, who was also royalty, had children. Jesus was apparently next in line to go public, to become a king as a servant of the people. We remember from the New Testament, when he gets brought up before Herod, I think it was, and he says to Jesus, are you a king? And Jesus said, you said it, or something like that in the translation. I often wondered why kingship came up with Jesus when he’s portrayed in the New Testament as coming into town riding on a donkey, sort of a prophet and that sort of thing. But Laurence Gardner has elucidated this so well. He takes off from where Sitchin leaves off, and gives us the ability, along with Sitchin, to rewrite just about the history of the planet, at least western culture.

Whether or not Jesus was crucified, whether somebody substituted for him, Gardner goes into it in detail, but there is so much complexity around it that I have found it easier to bypass that tangle of factual material.

GERALD: I was wondering at that point if it would be possible that I could share something with you from Laurence Gardner.

JANET: Please, please.

GERALD: I looked this up. I think I was led to share this with you tonight. First of all, I want to establish that there’s an also-known-as name list for people. One of the reasons that the Book of Enoch was left out of the Bible is because it connected you to Azazel, who was a master metallurgist, and he taught them about the use of antimony, which is stibium. That’s what gets mixed with gold to make the white powder gold inside Laurence Gardner’s patent.

We know the hermetic tradition comes from Hermes. We know that Hermes is Thoth. So listen to this. Page 197 of Gardner’s book Genesis of the Grail Kings. We’ve already considered the effect of gold upon the brain’s pineal gland, the secret eye, or Ayin, as being one aspect of hermeticism. The writings of Thoth confirm the association with the solar hieroglyph for gold, a dot with a circle around it, as being identical to that of the Ayin. Hence there’s a direct link between Thoth and Cain, Qayin, which becomes more understandable when we discover that Thoth was personally identified with the biblical Ham. And this is where he points you to his genealogy table in the descent from Lamech and Noah.

Once you understand that, I think a lot more things will come into play. I want to tie something in with the zodiac real quick. We know that Ningishzidda and Dumuzi accompanied Adapa to meet Anu, to explain what this genetic hybrid that was created was, and what its purpose was. In that account, Anu sends Thoth, who’s Ningishzidda, back to the earth with his mission. The reason I’m bringing this out is that it’s so important to understand what our destiny was and how it relates to Ningishzidda.

I think Zecharia Sitchin did the best job of this, and I’ve read it in some other accounts. On page 179 of his Lost Book of Enki, one of my favorites, Ningishzidda has just lowered his head and whispered to Anu and told him that the Adapa is Enki’s seed. In that message, when Ningishzidda is about to be sent back to the earth, we find out man’s destiny. To be civilized man, a progenitor, his destiny shall be. As for you, Ningishzidda, to Earth with Adapa you shall return, of civilized mankind at your father’s side to become the teacher. So did Anu the king the decision make, the destiny of Adapa and Ningishzidda he determined.

What I’m telling you right there is that the king of Nibiru, Anu, gave Ningishzidda the mission to do exactly what he’s doing as this teacher. So now we come back to the idea of, well, is this teacher going to be king? Realizing that they were trading Enkiites and Enlilites on the zodiacal council, the Anunnaki council of twelve based on the zodiac, they were ping-ponging back and forth. Sometimes it was an Enlilite’s turn in seat fifty, and sometimes it was an Enkiite’s turn. Well, guess whose turn it is this time? It’s Ningishzidda’s. It’s his turn. Ninurta has had it for a long while, because in Aquarius, the knowledge I have seems to me he was already at rank forty, and his son Marduk assumed rank fifty circa 2000 BC. So I think Enki actually got elevated, so as to have no need to do that lord of the earth thing anymore. I personally think in this exchange that he is going to take rank sixty. He’s replacing Anu, and his son Ningishzidda, who is Yehoshua, who is the true king, was none other than Ningishzidda, just as Anu appointed him to be.

JANET: What do you say, Yehoshua?

GERALD: Some of the Gnostic and Essene traditions did not call him Jesus. They called him Joshua, or Yehoshua.

JANET: So there’s a lot of reconnection, because Ham was one of the three sons of Noah, and I missed that. You said something about, oh, okay.

GERALD: On page 197 at the bottom, this is where Gardner lays it open. He connects Cain to Thoth. Here’s a direct link between Thoth and Cain, which becomes more understandable when we discover that Thoth was personally identified with the biblical Ham. And he’s got a chart in the back of his book.

JANET: I don’t understand, because wasn’t Ham just one of the sons of Noah?

GERALD: This is where it gets really good. Robert brought this up, about Zoroaster and the Ahura Mazda. In that account, we also know that Zarathustra was also known as Zoroaster. He introduced the religion of his father Ahura Mazda to the Persians. So now you understand why that connection is important.

JANET: So Enki was Ahura Mazda. Okay, Sasha wants to say something. Go ahead.

SASHA: It makes sense. I’d just like to give another version. This is one that Zecharia said about the Adapa and the Adamu. What Zecharia says is that 300,000 years ago, Enki instigated a mine rebellion so that he could go ahead with his genetic experiments. What he basically was doing was adapting the Nibiran genome to Earth by adding some copper and some clay of Africa and some homo erectus genes. For 100,000 years these were the people that were working the mines in South Africa.

By and by, 200,000 or 300,000 years ago, Enki made it with a couple of the really pretty girls among these groups, and they had two kids, Titi and Adapa. Their first issue were Cain and Abel in the Zecharia accounts. I won’t go into the Cain and Abel story, because it is a different version that Sitchin has.

But when we get down to who is Noah, or Ziusudra, what we find in Sitchin is that Batanash was the wife of Lamech, who was a descendant of Adapa, who was the overseer of work in the Eden in Iraq. Enki thought she was really pretty. He said Lamech was under threat because Enlil was trying to work him really hard and make the slaves give more labor and get less in return. So he said, I’ll protect you, Lamech, why don’t you go see my son Marduk, and Batanash, why don’t you go see Ninmah up at her place? As soon as she did that, Enki visited her, and they made love, and they had Noah, or Ziusudra. When he was born, Lamech said, hey, have you been making it with the Igigi astronauts? Oh, no, she says. And so Noah was the direct son of Enki himself in this account.

Then Enki, with the help of Galzu, put a computer program in Ziusudra’s computer wall, so he knew how to build the submersible. Enki sent his son Ninagal to pilot the submersible to Mount Ararat in 120 days. When Enlil saw that all the humans hadn’t died, that there was Enki’s son with Ziusudra having a big feast, he was going to kill Enki. But then Ninmah and Ninurta, Enki and Enlil’s son, talked him out of it. They said, hey look, we could rule through this guy’s sons. The three sons were Japheth, Shem, and Ham. And so the Grail line evidently, if they trace it from Ham, the Hamites wound up in Canaan, ruled by Seth, and ultimately Abraham. Anyway, that’s another version. I just wanted you to have that, that maybe Noah was much more directly, through Batanash, rather than through thousands of generations.

JANET: Who’s next?

GERALD: This is Gerald. Robert or Neil, do you want to add anything? Because I’ve got two more pieces of the thread that I want to weave in to focus in on Jesus.

NEIL: No, please go ahead.

GERALD: You sure? I’m really excited about this. The first time I shared this was on the George Noory show, and it came to me while I was thinking about some writings from Edgar Cayce. I just found the article where a fellow named John Van Auken had written on the body temple and referenced Edgar Cayce, and that got me to go and read the reference he had.

What I’m going to do is connect you, now that we’ve got Ningishzidda appointed by Anu to go be mankind’s teacher. I want you to think about that relative to the mystery schools and the dying-rising god ritual and this whole idea of energy and matter. In this account, Edgar Cayce says, know that your body is the temple of a living god. There you may seek communion, there you may seek counsel as to the choices to be made, the directions to be taken. Further on he goes on to talk about this feeling, this energetic experience happening within. It was very important that he was saying this isn’t some ritual that happens in a building out there. This is an energy and matter issue between you and energy. It’s a feeling thing.

That’s when I started to understand and make the connection to the chakras, and Jesus talking about casting out the seven demons, the seven blockages to the chakras, of Mary Magdalene. It made a lot more sense to me. So the body is a temple, and energy, and Ningishzidda being the teacher.

Here’s the next thread. In the Bible in John 1:12 we get introduced to this idea of energy. This is where he says, to all who received him, he gave power to become the sons of God. But right after that, if you keep reading, there are two points to that. There’s this receiving of energy and then using it in transformation. It’s not enough just to receive it. That’s part of the Christian shortfalling, that they’re teaching partial doctrine, and also using a name that’s not correct. So they’re venerating Enlil. If you realize, because Jesus is another name for Hail Zeus, if you really look at the roots of the word, that’s why I use the term Yehoshua.

In the very next sentence is the key that I shared with George, that Edgar Cayce also got. He stated that the word became flesh, and the flesh was our teacher. Listen to this: in John 1:14 it says, the word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only, who came from the father, full of grace and truth. Enki.

So now all of a sudden you go, hmm, makes a lot more sense, when you consider what symbol he carried, which was the caduceus. That was the key for our alchemical transformation, of getting out of the god spell using energy and matter, rather than just intellectualizing who was who and that we were enslaved. That’s the key.

JANET: Neil, who were the two Jesuses? I got a little confused. I was reading Gardner, and he said that both James and Jesus were sons of Mary and Joseph, and they were both vying for it. Jesus was born at the wrong time. You were mentioning that they had such a ritual around when a child could be conceived and when it was born, and so that’s why they were all concerned about whether Jesus is the first one. His birth was out of sync, so that’s why he was illegitimate, or his birth wasn’t quite right, or it was a real mess over that. And so James apparently was born at the right time. He was conceived at the right time. And so there was this discussion about who was in line for the kingship. Was it Jesus or James? Am I correct in what I’m interpreting there?

NEIL: Yeah. In order to try to make it as simple as possible, and probably oversimplified, it is true that there was information that was known to some people, and the fact that he was born out of sync. His parents Mary and Joseph were both Essenes, and that’s why Joseph was called a craftsman, because he apparently was knowledgeable and worked in the manufacture of monatomic gold.

The contrast between the Jesuses is this. There is whatever the history of the Jesus who was an Essene in the Grail bloodline, scheduled to take over, maybe a little ahead of or behind time or whatever, and who was married to Mary Magdalene, who was also an Essene and came from a royal family. The New Testament writers were Enlil emulators and did not have the bloodline, and they wanted the bloodline wiped out. They knew very well that she was Jesus’s wife, that they had children, and that he was royalty and she was too. But they wanted her totally discounted, because they knew apparently that the genetics of the transmission in these kings came through the women. They turned her into a whore as far as the Enlil emulators were concerned, in what we call the New Testament as it is in most of the Bibles now.

It was 365 years after the time of Jesus, when things were so confused because of the different bishops teaching different doctrines and people being partly ignorant and whatever, that the Roman emperor, if Gardner is correct, ordered the pope to call the conference, to get it squared away, to get a historical and definitive Jesus on the road. What we’re looking at is that since that conference took, I believe, two years, and involved fistfights and all kinds of low-level stuff, the Jesus that was actually codified at that particular time was a synthesis. He was not the real character at all.

It’s unfortunate that the Protestant protesters, when they got disgusted with the Roman Catholic hierarchy and empire and what they were doing, took with them this New Testament and Old Testament, both of which were theo-political skew rewrites. They took a synthetic Jesus with them. That’s the best I can tell, working against what I think is pretty definitive actual research and material that Laurence Gardner has put out.

JANET: Thank you. Did you want to say something, Sasha?

SASHA: Just that in some of the Essene material by Pagels and others, it talks about Jesus going on to Marseilles, which was called something else in those days, and actually leading the opposition to the fear gods in favor of a human heart connection and empathy among humans. He lived a full life. He had kids who grew up in France. Those lines descended from him intermarried ultimately with the Merovingian kings, and then Pope Leo seemed to join that together with a Holy Roman Empire, which was neither Holy nor Roman nor an empire.

JANET: Gerald, I have a question for you. Your research leads that Jesus was, I don’t know, an incarnation, or some kind of transmigration or transfiguration of Thoth, and Thoth was the thrice-born Hermes. Apparently Hermes has the ability, from the Emerald Tablets of Thoth, his body lies in the halls of Amenti in stasis, and he’s able to send his spirit, his form, his soul, down through the physical form of a female and be born again. Tell me a little about your research and your ideas on, is Jesus Thoth, is he Hermes, and so on.

GERALD: We left off with Ningishzidda having his mission, that he was the word that became flesh. He’s a flesh and blood being that can have this encounter with us. Now, is that a transmutation? Is it another incarnation? I don’t know how you would term that. But if the energy occupies a body and is able to make it animate itself according to the wills and whims of that energy or that intelligence, some people call that demon possession. So it really just comes down to what label got put on this. Some people that are mediums are having these experiences.

Here’s a kind of scientific theory I have. The extent to which your chakras are not open is the extent to which external entities can occupy them at various quantized levels. I think the casting out of those, and I think they are put in place and it refers to exactly who they are in the Emerald Tablets, they’re spiritual block points, such that you have to go through a process to wake up. All the eastern and ancient traditions relating to Hinduism or Buddhism correlate quantized levels of consciousness with these energy vortices in our body, which in the tradition they call chakras. So all of a sudden now this number seven, the seven chakras, makes a little more sense.

So now we know that Ningishzidda was told to go teach us. He became flesh. Edgar Cayce agreed that one of the incarnations of Ningishzidda, according to his readings, and I really venerate Edgar Cayce and I’ve read quite a lot of his material, some of his timelines might be shifted slightly, but who knows the extent to which the Anunnaki could control timelines with our tables of destinies and our planet’s orbits. They seem to have done it in the past.

The idea of Ningishzidda interacting with us is where I want to stay focused, because I believe, according to Cayce’s interpretations, he had many other names other than just Thoth, Hermes, Ningishzidda, Yehoshua, Jesus.

JANET: Was he Melchizedek?

GERALD: He believed he was Melchizedek as well.

JANET: That’s right.

GERALD: Right, because he had no father, no mother, and was kind of an immaculate birth type. Taking it from the standpoint that Ningishzidda carried the symbol of energy and matter interacting, and the end result of gaining the wings of Hermes using the pineal gland, keeping that in mind, it was pretty clear to me that because of the relationship of whatever was going on in Persia at the time of Jesus’s birth, and I’m fast forwarding a little right now, we knew the Levant was occupied by Enlil, and they were not allowed. I mean, they were the most severely brutalized slaves, as far as I’m concerned. They were under the auspices of Enlil directly, who had his capital in Ur.

So the idea of somebody from Persia, which now we know was Ahura Mazda, who was Enki, and this being who was Zarathustra, who was Thoth, who was Ningishzidda, they’re working together to bring something to happen in the Levant. The dying-rising god ritual, so that a frequency can be dispensed to these people so they can elevate their consciousness and wake up, because they’ve not been allowed to. We had all the schools going down in Egypt, in Enki’s domain, but that was not happening up in Enlil’s domain. Think of this as a Trojan horse used by Ningishzidda, occupying a body, transmuting however his energy was able to go from the ether into a body. He did that right under his nose.

JANET: Just to interject, maybe go offline and research Dr. Michael Newton’s research on what they’re finding on how souls come into bodies. You can be in many places at one time. You can have more than one soul, one body. We’re psychotherapists, and we’ve seen people that have been possessed. That’s just an aside.

SASHA: What you’re saying, Gerald, is totally consistent with Cyrus the Persian, once he reconquers Babylon, sending the Israelite hostages back to reestablish the temple in Jerusalem.

GERALD: That’s right. The constant warring going on between Babylon and Jerusalem had to do with these Enkiite and Enlilite bloodline feuds going on. Marduk was the offspring of Enki, and Enlil’s people were Ninurta, and I’m sure Nannar. Nannar was not only in Ur, where his father had a temple. He also had a twin moon temple up in Harran. That’s actually the place where the general Abram was given the order to go take the land of Canaan away from the Enkiites.

JANET: Right. So this is a war, and Enki and Thoth are now planning how to hijack back reality.

SASHA: Marduk’s allies had settled Canaan after they had taken over Lebanon at Marduk’s wedding, and they had settled in Jericho. That’s where they were. Goliath was one of them.

JANET: All right. Back to, well, we’ll do the wars. I guess we’re going to have to do a whole show on the wars of gods and men at some point. This is Easter, so I’m trying to stay with the Jesus. I want to give Neil a chance to talk about what I’ve said, to connect Thoth to Ningishzidda, who looks like he incarnated a body.

GERALD: Now at that point these three Babylonian wise men are sent from Persia, right? These magi, these are astrologers, who are watching the stars, knowing when the zodiacal house changes, to know when the king is supposed to be enthroned. Well, there you go. So they dispatched them to go and meet them. And then the gold, it’s a very interesting symbol now that you know about starfire gold. So he was designated king. Well, the deity was nothing other than Enki. He dispatched some people to go and have an encounter, to make sure his son was okay. It’s pretty clear.

JANET: What about the baptism? They have that famous artist’s rendition where there’s a spaceship up above and a beam is going into Jesus when he’s being baptized by John the Baptist. I think that Enki came down and walked with Jesus, with Thoth, during the last three years, just so he could be there in person. It’s like your ultimate avatar. They can do it. We can do it in our science fiction. Anything that we can imagine, they’ve done already.

GERALD: Enki and Ningishzidda had a very close relationship. Apparently Enki taught Ningishzidda as a chief scientist as well, everything he knew, and he was the penultimate source of knowledge, including writing the calendars. If you wanted the knowledge, you went to Thoth. That was Ningishzidda. And nothing has really changed, actually.

JANET: And then on the cross we’re told that he cries out, my father, my father, why have you abandoned me? So maybe he went back up on the ship or whatever, to make plans to get him out of there.

GERALD: That was probably part of the drama play that he was playing out with Mary Magdalene, his half-sister Ninharsag.

JANET: I believe Mary Magdalene was Ninharsag. That’s what I was going to say. Did she come down for the action? Because after Thoth becomes conscious in the halls of Amenti, he encounters the watchers, who I think are the Ogdoad, because they have greater knowledge than the Igigi, who are just another branch of the Anunnaki. These are people that have the knowledge of the creator of all, and apparently there was a blank spot with the Anunnaki about who was the creator of all. That was the story at Noah’s flood. Anyway, long story.

Back to what I was saying: Thoth decided to come back, and what better thing can you do than walk amongst humans and be human? How are you going to understand them unless you become them? He came in because he promised the watchers. They said, what is your work, now that you’re enlightened, what is your work? And he said, mine is to help humanity become conscious and enlightened too. So I think he came back. He’s the thrice-born Hermes. He walked among us. I think they had that ability, and then decided to come back in, and they’re probably here. There are probably a lot of people, because they’re not limited to one body at one time. A lot of people have their energy.

SASHA: It’s even more than that. If this is a holographic universe where every consciousness is to some degree in each of us, and we’re in every other consciousness, then each of us is Enki, Ninmah, and Jesus.

GERALD: I agree. Think about the point at which Ningishzidda was given the opportunity to upgrade our DNA before we were taken to the Garden of Eden in Eridu. He allowed us to be able to procreate. He did some gene splicing in there, our second gene. So there’s a little bit of Ningishzidda in every single one of us, right? Just like you said.

JANET: So, Neil, any comments? Or Gerald, are you done?

GERALD: I’m never done on this topic, so I want to venerate Neil. I never heard him come back and ask me anything about the Babel Factor and how that went, so I thought I’d tease him a little about it. I want to hear what his thoughts are about what I’ve come up with. We’re obviously going to have to have another show. But back to you, Neil. Thank you.

NEIL: As far as the Babel Factor is concerned, we should do that privately, not during the show, I think.

JANET: Private conversation.

GERALD: I just want you to know that there’s a new version of it that’s out after our last encounter, and I’m ready to share that with you.

NEIL: As the writer of it, as an amateur, I’m sure that’s an improvement.

GERALD: I think you go through a lot of iterations of this, but I think between the two of us we could dial it in.

NEIL: Great, great. In all the names that were given to Ningishzidda, I didn’t hear anybody say Quetzalcoatl.

JANET: Because I agree.

SASHA: Yeah, we agree. And Kukulkan too.

GERALD: I don’t agree with Kukulkan there. That was blood sacrificing going on with that being. I think it was an Enlilite that came in to route them. I just haven’t connected that yet. I could be convinced though.

SASHA: What von Däniken says is that after Kukulkan left in 311 BCE, the priests, the eight boys that he had trained to be priests, decided they would control everything by killing first their rivals and then all kinds of other people, and that it really wasn’t Thoth that did that at all.

GERALD: Okay. That’s how I disconnected from Kukulkan. I lost that connection there and I’ve never been able to. So the key is to look at their qualities. Were they violent, or were they compassionate? That’s a really good way to do it.

JANET: Neil, we lost you. What were you saying?

NEIL: I was just making a general remark about whether or not Quetzalcoatl was one of his names, and what he did, because obviously the geometry of the architectural material that he either taught them or did himself in the western hemisphere is so parallel to what we have in the Middle East, and all over the world for that matter, as far as pyramids are concerned.

I do have to say that generally I don’t usually think of this history in terms of the, let’s call it metaphysical realm, and the dimensions that you people are talking about. Not that I’m any more right or wrong about it than any of you are, but I tend to do a reductionist thing and think of it in terms of three-dimensional physical reality and individuals. I don’t extend it to the idea that the soul is a spirit that can cruise around and take any kind of identity that it wants and so on. But I may be totally wrong about that.

JANET: Well, that’s great. Everybody has their research.

NEIL: I would like to try to shift perspective here a little, because we’ve done such an excellent job on the history, hopefully for people who have never heard about this material before, out there on the other frequencies. I would like to shift perspective to the extent that C.B. Scott Jones and I, in our think tank cosmichumanity.org, are working on the assumption and the postulate that all of this is substantially true and correct, and that we need to get on the leading edge of this. We can’t wait for disclosure by some sort of authority or science.

We need to begin to explore our future in the evolutionary sense, and from a practical purpose, break the god spell, get to planetary unity and peace, so that we’re allowed to matriculate into stellar society. Further than that, we need to get with the Anunnaki as soon as we can to get resolution on some of the things that they did that were of lesser quality, and get technology from them. Perhaps get some of the answers to the questions that we have been kicking around, like what about a supreme being or not, and so on and so on.

JANET: And so how do we do that? I’m with you. What are your ideas?

NEIL: Scott and I and some people that we work with are deliberately putting out the invitation, saying we’re ready. It’s not going to be frightening if you show up here. Please show up, and let’s get this on, because now we know. Sure, the think tank that was engaged at the time of Roswell for their opinion said, no, you don’t want to put it out there now, because you’ll create havoc in society and so on. Now, if a saucer or Anunnaki craft landed in somebody’s backyard in the Midwest, the kids would run out there and welcome them aboard.

JANET: Yeah, it’s a whole lot different.

NEIL: So I recommend that you join with us in putting out that telepathic message to the Anunnaki, like, yes, we know we have part of your genetic code. It’s a unique situation. It’s not just like having a relationship to some other alien species that’s light years away or coming here. And then have in mind the deep questions, so that when they do show up we can interact with them as intelligently and as sufficiently as possible.

JANET: I agree, and I think they are able to receive our telepathic communication. I think it’s critical that we get past some of their mindset that there is one-upmanship and hierarchy and that women have to be relegated to second place. And if they come back to tell us to get more gold, because they’ll need more, we can say, what do you have to trade? Our consciousness is worth a lot to us, just like yours is to you, and we wish to be respected.

That gets us to the modern era. There are the stories that the Anunnaki came down sometime, I think it was my birthday month, 1954, February of ’54, but maybe previously, and spoke with Eisenhower. In ’55, the following year, they offered all the technologies, the anti-aging technology, and to cure our diseases. All these things exist. We want them to get down here now. Neil’s in his 80s, I’m in my 60s, Sasha’s in his 70s. Come on. Let’s get that information so we can stay embodied and have a choice, rather than having to freeze ourselves.

SASHA: Well, just in case it doesn’t work, have as much fun as you can while you’re in a body. We can have that as well.

JANET: So where do we want to go with this conversation? We have just about twelve minutes for somebody to wrap this up.

ROBERT: The ships are coming into our system on a daily basis. If these are the Anunnaki ships, I can’t see why we should not have disclosure within a very short period of time, because these things are just, they’re the size of our planet. I’m sorry. They’re that big.

GERALD: Robert, this is Gerald. On the back cover of my book, The Anunnaki of Nibiru, I did a little bit of a disclosure. You realize Mexico and Canada have disclosed, and from the Canadian government, Paul Hellyer, who is the ex-minister of defense, was in front of our US Congress and has a YouTube video twenty-five minutes long where he talks about who’s in the Indian Springs base north of Las Vegas. The tall whites that were having interactions with Charles Hall for three years, and his Millennial Hospitality books. They’re here. They’ve traded an underground base for advanced technology, just as has been stated. And you have to ask yourself, well, where is that technology, and what kind are we getting, and who’s getting it? It’s mostly going to the military. The advanced technology starts with the military and leaks out into the civil public generally.

JANET: One of the things that I think is very important to understand right now is that there is a zodiacal age change going on.

GERALD: And in coincidence with what Neil is saying about this organization with Scott, we’re in a situation now where we have to figure out how to become Earth graduates. If we don’t, we’ll be caught up in all of the Enlilite schemes and wars and rumors of wars that are going on right now.

ROBERT: These ships have also been caught by NASA actually defending our solar system from someone else. I’m going to stick with that point, because the images I have downloaded for the last several years, I have over 3,000 of these images. They show these huge ships firing beams at something else, and actually hitting something, something that our cameras cannot see. They’ve been doing it all the way up into 2013.

JANET: So, Star Wars.

ROBERT: Exactly.

JANET: Makes sense. But I was hoping that we’re past that paradigm out there, that they’re not shooting each other down, that they have a Star Trek society that isn’t fighting, that they’ve come into alliance and have a federation.

SASHA: They might be shooting comets and asteroids coming in, rather than ships.

JANET: I want to say, speaking of Jedi, that was another name for Thoth.

ROBERT: What’s that?

JANET: Jedi. Wasn’t Jedi, oh my goodness, yeah.

ROBERT: I just want to say that one of the ships that came in in 2006 looks like it just jumped right out of a Star Wars film.

GERALD: Listen, they’ve been coming and going all through history. Now they’re probably going to show up en masse because of the timing of the events, the procession, the great year, this harvest time. And the tall whites that Charles Hall was talking about said they only lived 800 years, and they did die after 800 years, because they got so tall that their organs couldn’t sustain their bodies anymore.

JANET: Do you think that those are Anunnaki, or is that a different species?

GERALD: I don’t know. The same thing happened to Gilgamesh when he became a Gibborim. You realize that at a certain point in their genetic time, all of a sudden they started getting much larger. Could they be some hybrid offspring from the Anunnaki that weren’t part of the higher echelon? Very possibly. They had lots of chimeras.

JANET: It’s not clear whether they were the Nephilim, the interbreeding of the Anunnaki, which in my opinion actually started with the Igigi according to the Lost Book of Enki.

GERALD: And in the Book of Enoch, yes. Now that you realize that Enoch was Thoth and read that book differently, you realize why at the Council of Nicaea, that group of people in Rome that Neil so eloquently pointed out, decided these books are in and everything else is out. Of course, the idea of Enki’s true relationship to his half brother that was left out in Genesis 1:26 needed to disappear, and that’s the way they kept it out. That’s why it’s the Enlilite story, and it’s dangerous. There are lots of interspersions of truth in there, but when it comes to the also-known-as list, watch out.

JANET: We need that AKA list. If you could get that to us, Gerald, it’d be great to put that out.

GERALD: What I was trying to do, to venerate Laurence Gardner and the Sumerian King List, including Berossus and all those people that came before me, is I put together a big hand-drawn genealogy table. I need to have it finalized as a scroll. It’s about seven feet tall, and it has the prehistory all the way down to the twelve tribes of Israel, which Gardner really helped us out with. He was a premier genealogist, and the world needs to venerate him.

JANET: There’s a genealogy program. Let’s talk about that off the show, and maybe you and I can work on getting that in, so it’s not on paper but actually in the computer.

GERALD: Right.

JANET: We have about three or four more minutes. Everybody say your website and your book so that everybody can follow up on what you’ve been talking about. Neil?

NEIL: My website is neilfreer.com, and our think tank is cosmichumanity.org. An easy way to find me is to type my name into Amazon. Anything that I consider to be worth it, I sell through there. What else do you need to know? My email is neil@neilfreer.com. I certainly would want to keep in touch with you bunch of minor geniuses.

JANET: And we’re going to do another show. We’ll talk about it after the show goes off. Let’s figure out another date. Gerald and Robert, real quick, let’s get yours, because we’re down to the wire here.

GERALD: geraldclark77.com is my website. There are links to my Facebook. All the other links are from there. G-E-R-A-L-D-C-L-A-R-K-77.com. From there, there’s also a link to my wife’s website, artisticvegan.com. She’s actually an alchemist and has been doing starfire golden monatomics for almost a year now. She’s developing herself. She just did a batch of twenty bottles today. I’m so excited about her path as an artistic vegan. I call her the vegan alchemist now.

JANET: Tell us about the conference.

GERALD: On June 7th and 8th in San Diego we’ve sponsored a conference and invited Dr. Sasha Lessin and Janet to come and co-speak with us. We’d also like to extend an invitation to Neil Freer, and I’ll do this more formally, because what a symposium we’ve had today. There will be some other speakers too. Everything from me is at geraldclark77.com.

ROBERT: My web page is starshipsaroundthesun.com. I can also be found on Facebook at Robert Evans Jr. I’m going to continue to do this research and get the information around. Sorry I can’t go to your show down there at the beginning of June. I’ll be over with my wife on the island of Malta, seeing all the stuff they have over there. The Hypogeum is fantastic. They actually have or had ancient aliens there, with the large heads, like King Tut and his mother and father, elongated skulls.

JANET: Yes, the elongated skulls.

GERALD: The website is anunnakiofnibiru.com for that event on June 7th.

JANET: Anunnaki of Nibiru.

ROBERT: We’ll be over there June 5th to the 14th. Hopefully we’ll see you. I will be posting a lot of photographs.

JANET: Oh, good. We’re going to put all this up. We have a couple of websites. We have one called aquarianradio.com, where we post all these shows, and we have enkispeaks.com. E-N-K-I-S-P-E-A-K-S. Final word to Dr. Lessin.

SASHA: Aloha. Much love and blessings.

JANET: And everybody stay on and we’ll talk after the show goes off. Thank you, everybody.

---

© 2026 Aquarian Media